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  #21  
Old 01-31-2009, 02:48 PM
Seldomseen Seldomseen is offline
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Triage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly Man View Post
We can't save everything as the world continues to evolve.
Triage. The Colorado River situation might be an argument for it.

By in large, I support native fish and here is why:

I love the chub.

Seriously, my favorite fishing holes are lousy with chub. They are also lousy with trout. It is a functioning ecosystem.

The ESA is a vehicle for habitat protection. I support habitat protection.

The question to me is: is the ESA the best model?

On to this point:


Quote:
Originally Posted by stoneflynut View Post
..............we have a law in our Nation called the Endangered Species Act which came about during the Nixon Presidency. The work going on for the chub is part of the adaptive management plan adopted as a mandate of that Act.
My biggest problem with the ESA is the "straw man" and other fallacy argument rhetoric it provides. Humpback Chub. Spotted Owl. Mexican Grey Wolf.

Is it possible to provide habitat conservation w/o the straw man?
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2009, 05:59 PM
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I wouldn't characterize the ESA as the" best" way to protect habitat, but it certainly has become an important way for enviro and conservation groups achieve some level of action and protection. Certainly critters like the humpback chub and spotted owl have become poster children (straw men?) for the movement but I tend to see them as the canaries of their ecosystems. Even that view is not without peril. And yes, there have been numerous instances where habitat has been protected and/or restored through various cooperative means that didn't include the ESA (e.g. the work on Anderson Mesa to benefit pronghorn plus many, many habitat projects AGFD has done with ranchers for elk/cattle/watershed benefits).

Then there are Conservation Agreements like the one for the Big Hole River Arctic grayling. Folks agreeing to work together to, in fact, keep the fish from becoming listed.

Some past gov. administrations have not been willing to cooperate and by rule change or Executive Order have moved ahead with drilling, mining, grazing, etc. without consultation whatsoever. Can you say, "Pinedale Anticline?" How about "Klamath River chinook?" If the enviros have an ESA species at hand, and I think this is what you characterize as a straw man, they can get a court injunction to halt the action until proper environmental assessments are conducted. In my opinion, that is why the development folks are so opposed to the ESA. It does provide a way for conservation groups to slow down the process so the envoronment and is associated species are not destroyed is the process of extracting resources valuable humans. That is, of course, the purpose of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA)

It is sometimes overreacting to blame enviros for their lawsuits. They are just trying to protect the habitat of that critter the best they know how. And as expeditiously as they know how. I'll bet if you look carefully, behind every lawsuit there is a broken habitat and a reason why it broke.

Sorry for rambling, Seldom. But this is a complex issue and doesn't lend itself to brevity. Ya know?

Zach: I don't think there is any short-term danger all those dams will come down. More than likely, they will fill with sediments in a couple hundred years and spill over the top.

“I fish because I love to…..not because I regard fishing as being so terribly important but because I suspect that so many of the other concerns of men are equally unimportant- and not nearly so much fun.” Robert Traver from Trout Madness (1960).

Last edited by stoneflynut; 01-31-2009 at 06:05 PM.
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  #23  
Old 02-01-2009, 10:46 AM
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Fly Man Fly Man is offline
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"I'm no Earth muffin but from reading your post it seems you don't understand we have a law in our Nation called the Endangered Species Act which came about during the Nixon Presidency. The work going on for the chub is part of the adaptive management plan adopted as a mandate of that Act." posted by StoneFlyNut


StoneFlyNut, I must have missed that whole ESA thing in this whole post. Sorry, I am just an idiot. I guess all of us stupid fisherman that " seem to only give a damn about trout " (your quote) need to stay out of this discussion and let all the people with PHD's and our government handle this. Lord knows our governments and all the laws of the land are just "brilliant" I say.
I apologize to the whole broad for posting me opinion and not having I guess the knowledge of the ESA according to some to post on this topic.
"So if your not smarter then a fifth grader please don't post an opinion if it questions all the experts or our governments laws"

Remember the government is the one that built the dam then created the ESA laws after building all these dams. What a paradox!!

I wish there could be a compromise for all. However, the GCT will not stop until this dam is gone.
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2009, 11:20 AM
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"So if your not smarter then a fifth grader please don't post an opinion if it questions all the experts or our governments laws" They just kept passing me along because I was such a pain in the #@! so I never ended up smarter than one, just older.

How is it you know so much about the GCT, Fly Man?
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2009, 11:50 AM
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How is it you know so much about the GCT, Fly Man?

I read articles and look at their web-site. I love the Ferry, so I like to know whats going on. Your welcome to fish with us any time we are up there.

Stoneflynut, I am cool with you. We just have differnent opinions. We just agree to disagree and thats cool.

Hope you have a great fishing season this year!
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  #26  
Old 02-01-2009, 11:54 AM
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Sure! I live in Flag so shoot me a pm next time you're heading through. Maybe I'll be able to join you.
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