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  #21  
Old 07-10-2019, 11:55 PM
almostlost's Avatar
almostlost almostlost is offline
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Originally Posted by bgiordano View Post
Now that we have a source for Gila Trout for recovery purposes, Gila Trout reestablishment should be much more successful.

None of these places that were mentioned qualify under the original argument of disliking/distrusting the management object of the removal of wild fish for stocked fish.
Are the terms "recovery" and "reestablishment" the correct ones to use on some of these streams, namely Haigler. Is there new evidence other than biomarkers that live across an expanse of water conditions and areas outside of the Gila or Apache range? I'm all for replacing rainbow sport stocking with natives, and building native populations in naturally treated (burned) streams until the process is more refined.

Until then, shutting down AZ streams to try and reestablish populations of native fish over and over again only to lose them to a fire in an improperly managed forest, or something as simple as a non pure strain population needs to be eradicated and restocked. This is tough to swallow when resources aren't as plentiful as they are in other states. Then to mention on top of that, we are receiving more out of staters with fewer streams to fish.

With that said, I commend you Bryan for the hard work you have done in this state, and commenting for what you believe in despite moving on to greener pastures. They are lucky to get you up north and my hats off. Thank you for your service!
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Last edited by almostlost; 07-11-2019 at 12:14 AM.
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  #22  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:38 AM
bgiordano bgiordano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almostlost View Post
Are the terms "recovery" and "reestablishment" the correct ones to use on some of these streams, namely Haigler. Is there new evidence other than biomarkers that live across an expanse of water conditions and areas outside of the Gila or Apache range? I'm all for replacing rainbow sport stocking with natives, and building native populations in naturally treated (burned) streams until the process is more refined.

Until then, shutting down AZ streams to try and reestablish populations of native fish over and over again only to lose them to a fire in an improperly managed forest, or something as simple as a non pure strain population needs to be eradicated and restocked. This is tough to swallow when resources aren't as plentiful as they are in other states. Then to mention on top of that, we are receiving more out of staters with fewer streams to fish.

With that said, I commend you Bryan for the hard work you have done in this state, and commenting for what you believe in despite moving on to greener pastures. They are lucky to get you up north and my hats off. Thank you for your service!

I appreciate the kind words. They mean a lot.

The Gila Trout Recovery Team has been working on updating the Gila Trout Recovery Plan. I have yet to see it, but have heard bits and pieces. The movement seems to be that looking at drainages, rather than specific streams. And then assessing streams within drainages that are considered historic range.

I will never argue that it is a tough pill to swallow. None of us enjoy closing waters to fishing. I hope no biologist ever does. Without anglers (license sales, DJ funding, etc), our work doesn't get happen. And we want to open fisheries as quickly as we can. But that is a balance between angling opportunity and ensuring the population can handle the pressure. One of these was re-opened this year so that anglers can enjoy it until we can get a handle on Apache Trout sources and a new barrier. West Fork Black River is in the same boat, we need a source of fish and a handle on some non-natives. Streams that currently have fishable populations non-natives are going to continue to be fishable until a GOOD source of Apache Trout comes up. We want to get these back to fishable populations as soon as we can after renovations occur.

Apache Trout and Gila Trout recovery will continue and to be honest, I am starting to get worried about Apache Trout being up-listed. There hasn't been any talk about that, it's just a personal worry. We are trying to take steps to better Apache Trout recovery and try to get it on par with Gila Trout. As far as tools for recovery go, the Gilas are in better shape.


Bucksnort,

Short answer to your question is yes.

Long answer: At this point, almost all our meadows have temperature issues. Years ago, Willow Rust came through a wiped out most of the willows. We live in AZ. Things are hotter here than in other states. That shading from willows is life or death for a trout in this state. So, you may find a fish from time to time in a meadow, but not many persist in them throughout the year. The closer to the trees/willows/canyons that shade the stream, the more fish there are.
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  #23  
Old 07-11-2019, 12:01 PM
jchar85719 jchar85719 is offline
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And... regarding Gila trout, it is my understanding that they are more temperature tolerant. So... getting them into Arizona streams just seems like a no brainer. In the long run, they will be better matched to the environment.
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  #24  
Old 07-11-2019, 12:51 PM
bgiordano bgiordano is offline
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Originally Posted by jchar85719 View Post
And... regarding Gila trout, it is my understanding that they are more temperature tolerant. So... getting them into Arizona streams just seems like a no brainer. In the long run, they will be better matched to the environment.
Both Gilas and Apaches are more temperature tolerant than most other trout. They should be. They evolved in the SW with short spurts of higher water temperatures, unconnected pools, and wildfire. But the adaptations to those environmental factors only go so far. The issue is the water temperatures are higher and for a longer period of time than they used to be, pools that used to be wet throughout the summer are drying up, and the wildfires are bigger and more intense.

But overall, yes. They are a better for AZ streams.
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  #25  
Old 07-19-2019, 12:06 PM
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BunsbertMontcroffEsq BunsbertMontcroffEsq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almostlost View Post
Are the terms "recovery" and "reestablishment" the correct ones to use on some of these streams, namely Haigler. Is there new evidence other than biomarkers that live across an expanse of water conditions and areas outside of the Gila or Apache range? I'm all for replacing rainbow sport stocking with natives, and building native populations in naturally treated (burned) streams until the process is more refined.

Until then, shutting down AZ streams to try and reestablish populations of native fish over and over again only to lose them to a fire in an improperly managed forest, or something as simple as a non pure strain population needs to be eradicated and restocked. This is tough to swallow when resources aren't as plentiful as they are in other states. Then to mention on top of that, we are receiving more out of staters with fewer streams to fish.

With that said, I commend you Bryan for the hard work you have done in this state, and commenting for what you believe in despite moving on to greener pastures. They are lucky to get you up north and my hats off. Thank you for your service!
i agree with your entire post (esp. the shout-out to bryan, who had a great article in last month's wildlife views).

the paragraph in bold is what got my attention. there are already a few rim streams closed to fishing for gila recovery, and i am all for that. there is a another pretty stream below the highline trail that used to hold a wild, self-sustaining population of trout native to eastern north america. last time I was there (after the highline fire), i saw absolutely no sign of fish. if the fire wiped out the fish from that stream, it might be a fine candidate for gila recovery.

but there is another stream on the rim, the upper section of a larger body of water that holds a wild, self-sustaining population of rainbows. i hope that stream isn't part of the reintroduction plan. I would get the argument, but this stream (and the little trout in there) are special to the anglers who know about it.

luckily, last i read, it wasn't part of this plan (from 2014: Current plans are to manage the trout fishery for increased fish and opportunity through habitat improvements and implementation of an artificial fly and lure only, catch and release management strategy. If the self-sustaining rainbow trout population was lost (e.g. to fire), the AZGFD would either implement a stocking program or seek approval to stock diploid trout to re-establish the self-sustaining population.)
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