No wrist = fly hitting rod tip... ???

[mikeyboyaz]

<Preface> First, I know I do it wrong; it works

I have found that the smacking is usually because I lift the rod tip back up, and then they collide (naturally) as far as too much power on the forward cast, I don't think there is any such thing! just let go of the fly line... I love how perfect the loops get when you let go and the line just keeps flying out...this of course only applies to 65+ft casts

[mvtoro]

Originally Posted by mikeyboyaz

as far as too much power on the forward cast, I don't think there is any such thing! just let go of the fly line... I love how perfect the loops get when you let go and the line just keeps flying out...this of course only applies to 65+ft casts

You guys beat me to the punch.

To clarify for Mike, it's not about too much power in the forward stroke. It's about too much power at the wrong time. In this case, as is the case with almost anyone who is applying power at the wrong time, it's too much too EARLY.

When you think about the casting motion, if done slowly, or without the resistance of line mass, the tip will make a nearly perfect arc. But it's not an arc that makes a long straight cast. Rather, it's drawing a straight line with the rod tip that will make the top arm of your loop travel long and straight in front of you. The top arm of the loop follows the path of your rod tip during your casting stroke. Makes sense right?

SO, how do you make an arc motion into a straight line? This is because when you drive the rod forward, hindered by having to pull the line, it flexes and therefore shortens, so at the point above you, where the tip would be at the apex of the arc, the rod is most flexed and the tip is at the same level as when the rod was straight but tilted back. When the rod is straight again at the forward extreme of your casting stroke it is again near the same level.

Think about it this way: the forward power stroke creates the top arm of the loop, and where you leave the rod tip at the end creates the bottom arm of the loop (especically when you're shooting line). If you apply too much pressure at the beginning when creating that top arm, the rod flexes too much, the tip dips too low and the top arm of the loop will therefore be too low. If you then keep your tip up at the end of the stroke, as you would to try to keep your loop narrow, the too low top arm will come below the now straightened rod tip and the bottom arm of the loop. A "tailing" loop.

If you are trying to hero cast to impress your friends, you will be flexing the rod more as you apply more power to get more flex to get more out of your rod. You'll still have to apply power in a gradual manner (the paintbrush) but you'll also have to understand that your tip will need to be lower at the end to accomodate for the extra flexion. What I'm saying is, unless you're casting the same distance and same weight everytime, forget about 10 and 2. Watch some Tim Rajeff and you'll get over it.

You and everyone else, has probably noticed that these kinds of problems don't usually occur on the one or two false casts we take, but suddenly appear right when we were going to let 'er fly on the last one. That's because we tend to want to put a little extra oomph into the presentation cast. Timing changes, flexion deepens, and it suddenly ruins everything on the last cast.

Probably too much explanation for something that can be shown in person much more easily. Go to Bass Pro and make FlyGirl show you what we're talking about.

[Flygirl]

Miss you Tim

He could not have said it better for you RollininZona,
but if you would like some in-person help, I have a casting class this saturday morning the 11th you are welcome to attend, 9-10, 10-11, 11-12. and another Sep 25th same times, or let me know a wed or friday morning for 1 on 1. Although I am traveling to the Grandfather store in MO from the 13th to the 20th of this month and will be unavailible during that time.

[aztightlines]

Since your handle is "Rollinzona" I suggest you try "rollin" your wrist open and closed on the cast - forget that nowrist advice. Good casters use a lot of wrist.

Practice sitting at your computer without a rod: sweep your forearm back and forth like a cast, opening and closing your wrist (knuckles bent inward) a few times to get the feel of it.

Roll the wrist open on the backcast, close it on the forward cast - then try it out on the grass or water with your 8 wt. outift.

You may surprised at how much more power and control you muster using this technique.

[rushthezeppelin]

Originally Posted by mvtoro

You and everyone else, has probably noticed that these kinds of problems don't usually occur on the one or two false casts we take, but suddenly appear right when we were going to let 'er fly on the last one. That's because we tend to want to put a little extra oomph into the presentation cast. Timing changes, flexion deepens, and it suddenly ruins everything on the last cast.

On a side note I don't know if it's me but I always snag on my presentation casts and never false casts, at least when I snag behind me. Part of it seems to be that when I do my presentation cast my fly somehow dips lower on my last backcast. Not sure what the problem is there, although it certainly gets much worse when I'm trying to cast in the wind.

[mvtoro]

Originally Posted by rushthezeppelin

On a side note I don't know if it's me but I always snag on my presentation casts and never false casts, at least when I snag behind me. Part of it seems to be that when I do my presentation cast my fly somehow dips lower on my last backcast. Not sure what the problem is there, although it certainly gets much worse when I'm trying to cast in the wind.

It's not just you. Tons of people do this. Once again, I think it's a change due to trying to go a little bigger on the presentation cast. You'll just have to have someone watch you while you cast to see what you're doing different on the last one.

I have clients who pause longer on that last backcast letting the fly drop, and some who reach back further and let the tip drop lower at the end of the last backcast I guess feeling like it will set up a longer and bigger and thus more powerful presentation cast.

Concentrate on keeping your tip nice and high on the backcast. IMO it's at the end of the backcast where a loose wrist will kill you most.

[Bighand]

Letting the rod drift to far back. You can try the trick of poking the rod tip up to the sky for a higher backcast. Tailing loop sounds like the forward cast problem. Drop the rod butt down an inch or so when making the presentation cast at the very end. The other method is to practice keeping the fly line above the rod tip with smooth cast motion. Work on keeping the jerking cast motion to an end and replacing it with a smooth cast motion. Also keep the line tight and only slipping out when you want line to go when adding distance to your cast. I should know all about this since I am the Wind Knot King!

[RollininZona]

Wow...

More than 10 years ago I asked the opening question to this thread and the quality of advice given still blows me away.

This forum has been SO good to me! Really - nothing but good has come from my time spent here. So many good times...

Thanks to everyone for the inspiration, instruction, encouragement, and comradery.

Cheers

[Sasquatch]

Lots of good advice. Did you solve the problems?

[RollininZona]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Lots of good advice. Did you solve the problems?

Yes Sasquatch, I certainly did. Thanks for asking.

As this was 10 years ago, I can't say exactly what the problem was, but my process of solving it began with sizing flies appropriate for the line weight.

Turns out, soaking wet 6" long 4/0 rabbit fur streamers are a BIT much for an 8wt rod! Lol.

I remember committing to more reasonable 1/0 feather and synthetic flies for a day and viola! No rod tip smacking. I remember thinking "this is as easy as casting trout flies on a 5 wt".

So my problem was probably rooted in trying to power those too-heavy for the line weight, wet-sock pike flies.

Turned out to be a good pike season. Fun video here https://youtu.be/eX5Y3KXKtlE