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  #11  
Old 07-09-2019, 08:53 AM
bgiordano bgiordano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post
I agree Mudbug. I would rather catch a wild Brown than a rubber stocker Gila or Apache all day long....just my preference. Though, I have no problem with replacing stocker rainbows with stocker Gila....if a lake/stream is full of stockers, they may as well be a native.
Again, do you guys have examples of these? As an angler, I agree if this were true.

Nowhere (at least in Region 1) are we managing for a stocked native fishery instead of wild population of salmonids (native or non-native).

It seems that this is a complaint that isn't necessarily founded on facts.
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  #12  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:59 PM
River River is offline
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The word "native" added to "fishery" changes the conversation. Still, I prefer to catch a wild, stream-bred Brown over a stream-stocked Apache or Gila all day long. However I appreciate the value of some of these streams being given back to the natives....but is it going overboard…..maybe.
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  #13  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:40 PM
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Westy Westy is offline
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West Fork Black - browns removed, barriers put in place. Apache trout fishery has been questionable there at best. Unfortunately that native reintroduction has not been successful and removed a very good wild trout fishery.

Haigler Creek (upper) - proposed to remove wild rainbow and brown trout

I think the USFWS has done removals too of wild browns in some areas of the Whites too, such as Bonito Creek and its forks to help curtail the populations moving up to the barriers.
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  #14  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:32 PM
bgiordano bgiordano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post
The word "native" added to "fishery" changes the conversation. Still, I prefer to catch a wild, stream-bred Brown over a stream-stocked Apache or Gila all day long. However I appreciate the value of some of these streams being given back to the natives....but is it going overboard…..maybe.
One thing to consider about "going overboard" is that if Apache Trout, Gila Trout, or whatever listed fish species continue to disappear, it is possible that they get up-listed to "Endangered" under the ESA. In that case, the States lose even more control in managing for the species. Additionally, the "Endangered" tag means no more fishing.

Either way, folks are going to continue to try to reach recovery for these species. If you want to be able to fish for them, it's in the best interest of the anglers that these projects succeed.

As a biologist, it is MUCH easier to manage a sportfish population. We don't want these fish to be unfishable. I want to be able to go enjoy them, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Westy View Post
West Fork Black - browns removed, barriers put in place. Apache trout fishery has been questionable there at best. Unfortunately that native reintroduction has not been successful and removed a very good wild trout fishery.

Haigler Creek (upper) - proposed to remove wild rainbow and brown trout

I think the USFWS has done removals too of wild browns in some areas of the Whites too, such as Bonito Creek and its forks to help curtail the populations moving up to the barriers.
All three of these examples are not what was complained about. The concern was replacing WILD fish with STOCKED hatchery fish that are not reproducing.

Upper West Fork Black River is managed as a WILD Apache Trout population. There is no stocking. There is actually a very healthy population of Apache and Brook Trout upstream of Thompson Creek as you get closer to the Reservation and then up onto it. There are almost NO trout throughout the meadow down to the upper barriers due to temperature issues. Temperatures reach critical thresholds for trout throughout the meadow nowadays. If Brown Trout were not removed there, they would no longer be occupying the meadow throughout the summer either because of the temps. Everywhere below the upper barriers is managed for a wild Brown Trout fishery. Nowhere on the West Fork Black River is managed for stocked fish. There is a small supplemental stocking near West Fork Campground for put and take, though that's not the management objective.

Haigler Creek is proposed for a WILD recovery population of Gila Trout. Yes, it would likely start with hatchery fish from a source that is consistently being supplemented with wild genetics and is expected to be a wild reproducing population. But there is no intention of replacing wild salmonids with a stocked fishery.

I'll be the first to tell you that Apache Trout recovery has been met with some big speed bumps. Half of that is environmental factors (Wallow Fire says HELLO!), the other half is the access to fish to restart populations. Those all exist on the Reservation which AZGFD does not manage. Now that we have a source for Gila Trout for recovery purposes, Gila Trout reestablishment should be much more successful.

None of these places that were mentioned qualify under the original argument of disliking/distrusting the management object of the removal of wild fish for stocked fish.
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  #15  
Old 07-10-2019, 06:33 AM
jchar85719 jchar85719 is offline
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This was a very informative post. Thank you very much Mr. Giordano.
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  #16  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:10 AM
bgiordano bgiordano is offline
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Originally Posted by jchar85719 View Post
This was a very informative post. Thank you very much Mr. Giordano.
Absolutely. Discussion on these issues are great. It's a controversial subject and will continue to be. So anglers should have the necessary information.

Most of us biologists got into this field because we were anglers FIRST. I was fly fishing for 10 years before I started going this path in college. And we are still anglers in our free time.
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  #17  
Old 07-10-2019, 01:16 PM
Bucksnort Bucksnort is offline
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bgiordona,

I'm with you. I would rather catch a gila than a rainbow in Arizona. Now, if I can just accomplish that goal.
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  #18  
Old 07-10-2019, 01:21 PM
Bucksnort Bucksnort is offline
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bgiordono,

Where are the barriers and meadows you mentioned?
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  #19  
Old 07-10-2019, 02:50 PM
AzMandella AzMandella is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucksnort View Post
bgiordono,

Where are the barriers and meadows you mentioned?
Upper West Fork of the Black . The area just below Big Lake .
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  #20  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:21 PM
Bucksnort Bucksnort is offline
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AzMandella,

Do these meadows where temperatures could be too high for trout go as far south as Road 25?

I'm learning so bear with me.
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