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#21
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That makes sense....Yaqui trout and and nelson rainbows in baja live even south of here, probably came up from the oceans.
Steelhead have a current range all the way south the S. California, but it is not hard to envision them further south in cooler climates of the past. |
#22
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Some light reading from Miller (1972)
![]() Quote:
Also, Behnke's book "Native Trout of Western North America" certainly has some additional information... |
#23
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Thank-you...the paper seems to raise as many questions as it answers, but is fascinating reading.
So, they could be offspring of northern cutthroat populations...and/or...in the lineage of more southern rainbow strains. |
#24
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Jeremy, thank you! This is awesome!
What was the karyotype of the Gila related to!? Was it Clarki or chrysogaster?
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#25
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I've been looking into this some more which has lead me to chromosomes...
"Trout and Salmon of North America" by Behnke states; "that the main diagnostic feature for scientific differentiation of Gila and Apache trout from all other oncorhynchus species is the chromosomal profile." Apache and Gila trout have 56 pair-106 arms Rainbows have 58-64 pair-104 arms Cutthroats have 64-68 pair-104 arms Mexican Golden trout have 60 - thought to be the strongest link at one point. Yaqui and Mayo trout have 64 - some of the closest to Apache and Gila in relative distance. I wonder what is going on here? I believe the Apache/Gila chromosomal profile was stated by Miller back in 1972. Was it correct? If so where did they come from? BTW I have no idea what I'm talking about, how pairs of chromosomes are added or removed. Just stating what I found online ![]()
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wilderfly.com Last edited by almostlost; 10-28-2017 at 10:08 PM. |
#26
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Almostlost,
You have developed a serious interest. I'm left back at conceding to Dr. B and then reading that Dr. Miller thought that I had a pausible idea.
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"People Throw Rocks at Things That Shine" Taylor Swift Last edited by joe; 10-28-2017 at 11:00 PM. |
#27
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The colorado plateau
Here is something to mull over. I don't know if there are any answers to these question here, but ask yourself this- "Has the Colorado River always flowed from north to south as it does, (generally), today?" What effect on trout species would this have had, if at some time in the past it flowed in the opposite direction?"
Is this even a possibility? Study up a little bit on the Colorado Plateau. The Colorado River used to run south to north to Lake Bonneville in Utah. Just look at a topo map of the Colorado River, say from Cameron northward through Lake Powell. The angles of confluence of tributaries to the Colorado show that the Colorado River formed at a time when the southern reaches were at a higher elevation and the River flowed north to the Great Basin part of Utah and to Ancient Lake Bonneville at a much lower elevation. What could tip the Four Corner area of the Southwest from sloping South to North- to the current situation of tipping North to South? The answer is the rise of the Colorado Plateau. That is what the Mogollon Rim is all about. It is Thousands of feet higher than the deserts to the south because it is the southern edge of the Colo P., which is a huge part of the 4 corners area of the southwest that over millions of years, as a block, began to rise up in elevation. As it rose- it seems the northern edge rose to a higher elevation than the southern part causing the Mighty Colorado to reverse direction. At the time of this reversal of flow is, probably when the Grand Canyon was formed, as the water sought a route off to the west and then south of Las Vegas and finally found a way south to the Gulf of California, If the ancestors of gila trout, apache trout, and Colorado River Cutthroats were around - while all of these geologic changes were going on-(and they must have been)- no wonder it is a complicated puzzle. I learned about this geology stuff from Dr. Beus of NAU one summer when I had the privilege a few decades ago, of participating with a group of Az science educators in an incredible program. It was known as the Grand Canyon Experience and was one of the most memorable summers of my life. ![]() I thought I was going to get kicked off the river trip one evening while I was fly fishing and landed an endangered humpback chub. Luckily I was using a barbless hook and Larry Stevens the biologist on the trip, took the opportunity to have everyone come over and actually see one as we held it in the water in my net. Then we returned it back to the Mighty Colorado. Probably not too many fly fishers have that species on their "landed" list.
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Last edited by Flashback; 10-30-2017 at 11:38 PM. |
#28
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Quote:
From what I'm reading,the Colorado plateau finished taking form about 20 million years ago (?) and the Colorado river began flowing through the route we know today about 6 million years ago. However, it wasn't until the Pleistocene era (latest ice age) between 2.6-11,700 years ago that the trout we know today (cutthroat/rainbow) entered the inland rivers and tributaries through the melting glacial waters. And now I'm interested in why the rainbows and cutthroats that we know today have different chromosomal profiles than Gila and Apache? Could G/A somehow be related to a more prehistoric species of trout that lived within the inland waters when they tended to be warmer? Doubtful, but I don't believe we had the same Glacial activity (hence cooling of waters) as the states to the north did, which may have eradicated a warmer water species of trout. Or is it that Gila and Apache chromosomal structure just simply changed for one reason or another? Just having fun looking things up and coming up with crackpot theories ![]()
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wilderfly.com Last edited by almostlost; 10-31-2017 at 12:55 PM. |
#29
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Thanks for those dates- That eliminates the possibility of flow direction change having an effect on pre-existing trout. It does mean though, that after the geologic changes we had a lot of habitat in the southwest able to sustain trout in a lot of different locations. - It seems nature found a way.
![]() And now nature is getting a boost and continuing to be downright creative in the process.
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#30
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Hey Flash, if that's an AZ tiger, then they are picking up some nice colors!
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