Arizona Fly Fishing Forums  

Go Back   Arizona Fly Fishing Forums > Arizona Fly Fishing > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 11-15-2013, 11:11 AM
RIMFISHER RIMFISHER is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 92
Depending on the year the fishing upstream from the campgrounds can be awesome for nice sized wild fish. It suffers during drought years but as of late it has been pretty good. I would not say the area upstream from the private land is not prime brown trout water. There are some large pools with undercuts, boulders, and large submerged logs. I camped in this area last year and caught a really nice brown on a mouse pattern just before sundown. It was definitely one of my most memorable fly fishing experiences.

I'm not against the departments efforts in trying to re establish the Gila Trout population in some state streams but there are only a handful of creeks in the rim area that grow large wild trout and Haigler is one of them. I do not consider Grapevine and Frye creek in the same class as Haigler and hope this proposition gets turned down.

I'd think the upper section of See Canyon would be a better area as we are already catching 6" wild fish there. It would be easy to construct a barrier in that area and establish a new population of 6" Gila Trout to catch. It would also be easier for the department to stock, monitor and regulate catch and release in that area.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-15-2013, 12:41 PM
Zor's Avatar
Zor Zor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 847
I would also recommending weighing in your opinion with game and fish. Another item to consider is the cost of all of this experiment and who is going to pay for it. The estimate from the developer to build the fish weir (to separate the non natives from the natives) is in the neighborhood of $240,000. That only scratches the surface of the total cost for the project. I for one am all for native fish in their historically native habitat. I am almost positive that Haigler flows into the Salt and according to Dr. Bob Behnke's research the Gila trout are native to the Gila watershed and Apache trout are native to the Salt watershed. I can't support killing wild non native fish to stock another non native from a weak brood stock. This is my other concern with restoring native populations and the costs involved. We haven't proved that we have a strong stock of native fish that can form a self sustaining population in the wild. My suggestion would be to use the money slated for this project to fund heartier genetics in our native fish and let them prove themselves in the wild on smaller scale efforts, ie. grapevine and the like.

This is only my opinion and one that I have expressed to game and fish and will continue to express until a final decision is made. I encourage anyone who has strong feelings on this to do their own research and form their own opinion. This is your water as much as it is mine so please attend meetings and make your voice heard.
__________________
"I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you can see all kinds of things you can't see from the center."
-Kurt Vonnegut
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-15-2013, 02:09 PM
mynameisjohne's Avatar
mynameisjohne mynameisjohne is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 94
SAVE Haigler Creek

http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/NewsMed ... reek.shtml

Help save Haigler Creek, one of Arizona's premier WILD Rainbow and Brown trout fisheries.

Please call and/or write:

Arizona Game and Fish Department
Attention: Fisheries
5000 W. Carefree Highway
Phoenix, AZ 85086-5000

602-942-3000
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-15-2013, 02:31 PM
bhickfish's Avatar
bhickfish bhickfish is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 888
This is an interesting reaction to me. This project is endorsed by Trout Unlimited, both an angler and a conservation group.
This project is only really going to affect a few miles of the headwater section of a stream. That seems like a small, and short term, price to pay to have a fish that is only found in a few dozen streams in the world just a few hours drive from Phoenix. There are more streams with Brown trout and Rainbow trout in Arizona than there are streams with Gila trout in the entire world.
Part of the project is going to be funded by the Western Native Trout Initiative, which gives out funds only for restoring native trouts.
It seems like some of the concern is the affects on the trout fishery downstream of the treatment area. Even if the treatment travels farther downstream than intended, trout almost always move back upstream.
Currently, if you want to go fish for a Gila trout, your closest option is Frye Mesa, or the Gila Wilderness. If the project is carried out, you have the option of fishing for Gila trout much closer, and even if you want to fish for Browns and Rainbows, you don't even have to switch creeks, you can just go downstream. I think it gets to the idea of "not in my backyard."
Some people have also spoken about the genetics of Gila and Apache trout as being somehow weak, or not well adapted to their environment. I think the point that is being missed is that Gila and Apache trout speciated and evolved in small streams with few natural fish predators. Gila trout had to deal with other Gila trout, and maybe some Headwater and Roundtail chub as predators, and that is what they are adapted to deal with. So a predator like Brown trout, is something native trout never had to deal with, and adaptation doesn't come in the few dozen generations since introduction of non-native trouts.
Other removal methods, like mechanical removal cannot be used on this project. This is because rainbow trout can readily hybridize with Gila trout. It only takes one missed fish to compromise an entire reintroduced population.

I think this is a great opportunity to have a unique fishery in our state, and at a small cost in the big picture.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-15-2013, 03:04 PM
RIMFISHER RIMFISHER is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 92
I guess I am just biased because I have fished the headwaters since I was a kid and the more effort you put in and further up you go the scenery and fishing typically gets better. I am not a big fan of fishing for Apache or Gila trout so establishing a catch and release section especially in a section of creek that produces big wild fish is not appealing to me. Also, there are wet years where brown trout move way up stream from this proposed section of stream so it's not just a mile of creek we are talking about.

As Zor stated in his post this section of Haigler may have never even been home to Gila trout. It just doesn't make sense to me to kill a healthy population of wild rainbow and brown trout that have proven they can endure flash floods and high water temps to experiment on introducing a new species to this water.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-15-2013, 03:06 PM
mynameisjohne's Avatar
mynameisjohne mynameisjohne is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 94
Rotenone

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rotenone is an odourless, colourless, crystalline ketonic chemical compound used as a broad-spectrum insecticide, piscicide, and pesticide.

Rotenone is used as a pesticide, insecticide, and as a non-selective piscicide (fish killer).
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-15-2013, 03:13 PM
RIMFISHER RIMFISHER is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 92
According to the WNTI site this is already a done deal.

http://www.westernnativetrout.org/node/285

Awesome! I look forward to catching 6-8" Gila trout in 3 years that will probably have an after catch mortality rate through the roof. At least I can say I bagged a $100 fish. Actually, even after a population of over 1,000 fish are established it's more like $300/fish.

I try to stay current on what the AZGFD is working on as far as recovery efforts and I don't know how I missed this over the last couple years.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-15-2013, 03:21 PM
lando lando is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 401
This boondoggle reminds me somewhat of Utah's ingenious decision to poison self-sustaining populations of non-native brook trout in reservoirs and replace them with alleged native Colorado cutts, which have to be restocked constantly. Yes, man-made reservoirs, so no fish ever lived in them as natives. Stuff like this is why I won't renew my TU membership next year.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-15-2013, 03:23 PM
mynameisjohne's Avatar
mynameisjohne mynameisjohne is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhickfish View Post
This is an interesting reaction to me. This project is endorsed by Trout Unlimited, both an angler and a conservation group.
This project is only really going to affect a few miles of the headwater section of a stream. That seems like a small, and short term, price to pay to have a fish that is only found in a few dozen streams in the world just a few hours drive from Phoenix. There are more streams with Brown trout and Rainbow trout in Arizona than there are streams with Gila trout in the entire world.
Part of the project is going to be funded by the Western Native Trout Initiative, which gives out funds only for restoring native trouts.
It seems like some of the concern is the affects on the trout fishery downstream of the treatment area. Even if the treatment travels farther downstream than intended, trout almost always move back upstream.
Currently, if you want to go fish for a Gila trout, your closest option is Frye Mesa, or the Gila Wilderness. If the project is carried out, you have the option of fishing for Gila trout much closer, and even if you want to fish for Browns and Rainbows, you don't even have to switch creeks, you can just go downstream. I think it gets to the idea of "not in my backyard."
Some people have also spoken about the genetics of Gila and Apache trout as being somehow weak, or not well adapted to their environment. I think the point that is being missed is that Gila and Apache trout speciated and evolved in small streams with few natural fish predators. Gila trout had to deal with other Gila trout, and maybe some Headwater and Roundtail chub as predators, and that is what they are adapted to deal with. So a predator like Brown trout, is something native trout never had to deal with, and adaptation doesn't come in the few dozen generations since introduction of non-native trouts.
Other removal methods, like mechanical removal cannot be used on this project. This is because rainbow trout can readily hybridize with Gila trout. It only takes one missed fish to compromise an entire reintroduced population.

I think this is a great opportunity to have a unique fishery in our state, and at a small cost in the big picture.
Hey Hick,

Take your Jila experiment to Silver Creek, where you won't be poisoning WILD TROUT.

Hey Lando,

Quote:
Stuff like this is why I won't renew my TU membership next year.
Amen

Last edited by mynameisjohne; 11-15-2013 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Add
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-15-2013, 03:27 PM
MGIII's Avatar
MGIII MGIII is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,290
I personally love fishing Haigler creek however have not explored all of its waters. I enjoy catching wild bows and browns there so I would be sad to see them poison the waters. They say they are only going to poison the upper part of the stream but we all know the poison will flow a long ways down which will affect the entire stream. I don't want them to waste money on putting Gila trout in these waters mainly because the chances of it being successful aren't guaranteed and who know how long that stretch of water will be closed off. Is a fish kill really necessary? Like someone posted above, can't they shock the fish and transport the fish down stream? If they do decide to proceed with this introduction of the Gila trout I would volunteer to help shock the fish and transport them, not to support the introduction but just to save our wild rainbows and big browns up stream.

I don't know exactly what stretch of the waters they are planning to do this so if anyone can tell me where I would be grateful.

I will not be able to attend the meeting so what is the best way for me to voice my opinion to game and fish, TU, and whoever else is supporting/pushing this project.

How successful was the dude creek project? A lot of money went into that.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bring back the chub, car salesman, seaworld, stockers r us

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Logos, Trademarks are property of their owners. Other content Copyright 2006-2015 azflyandtie.com . All Rights Reserved.