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  #11  
Old 12-27-2017, 06:44 AM
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JS92 JS92 is offline
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Don’t know about all the scientific stuff but one day years ago my brother and I were fishing the South Platte up Cheesman Canyon. I was catching and he was not. Same flies same depth same weight etc. We figured out he was using mono and I was using fluorocarbon. Changed his set up to fluorocarbon and bingo he started catching. That was the last day he used mono and now I’m a believer.
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  #12  
Old 12-27-2017, 08:54 AM
COLOFLY COLOFLY is offline
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Another plus to fluoro is it is easier to untangle the casting knots...er...I mean wind knots! lol
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2017, 09:18 AM
Bucksnort Bucksnort is offline
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Baiter,

The story about the scouts is interesting. Two anglers can stand close to each other, use the same equipment, same flies, same technique and one will probably catch more fish than the other.

I have thought about this for many years trying to come up with an explanation. A high school pal taught me how to fish on the South Platte River. He would regularly catch more fish. I knew nothing about fly fishing and had no equipment so he taught me using his equipment, flies, etc. In some cases, I would fish a particular run, catch nothing then he would step in the same place and catch fish.

So why did this happen? I have two answers. First, his experience in knowing more about presentation than me and second, trout are finicky. When he was in the water, although it was only a few minutes after I was there, the trout may have moved elsewhere or just not have been in a feeding mode or didn't see my fly for one reason or another.

Your story about having four to five fishers in the same stretch of river reminds me of this.

Last edited by Bucksnort; 12-28-2017 at 09:21 AM.
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  #14  
Old 12-28-2017, 09:51 AM
Silver Creek Silver Creek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucksnort View Post
Baiter,

The story about the scouts is interesting. Two anglers can stand close to each other, use the same equipment, same flies, same technique and one will probably catch more fish than the other.

I have thought about this for many years trying to come up with an explanation. A high school pal taught me how to fish on the South Platte River. He would regularly catch more fish. I knew nothing about fly fishing and had no equipment so he taught me using his equipment, flies, etc. In some cases, I would fish a particular run, catch nothing then he would step in the same place and catch fish.

So why did this happen? I have two answers. First, his experience in knowing more about presentation than me and second, trout are finicky. When he was in the water, although it was only a few minutes after I was there, the trout may have moved elsewhere or just not have been in a feeding mode or didn't see my fly for one reason or another.

Your story about having four to five fishers in the same stretch of river reminds me of this.
Your theory is plausible and even likely when one fly fisher is better than another. However it becomes unlikely when the fly fisher who is not catching begins to catch more fish when he switches from fluorocarbon to from nylon mono as in the post below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JS92 View Post
Donít know about all the scientific stuff but one day years ago my brother and I were fishing the South Platte up Cheesman Canyon. I was catching and he was not. Same flies same depth same weight etc. We figured out he was using mono and I was using fluorocarbon. Changed his set up to fluorocarbon and bingo he started catching. That was the last day he used mono and now Iím a believer.
Here is my question. What if the brother switched flies and began to catch more fish? Would there be the level of doubt that the flies were NOT the reason he began to catch more fish? Why is there doubt then the change is to fluorocarbon?

Obviously both a fly change and a leader material change should be treated equally. They are the same experiment. If there is disbelief, it is a preconceived bias to disbelieve that fluorocarbon could be the difference.

When you go fishing, you are sampling the behavior of the fish in the watershed that you are fishing. You are sampling for fish that are susceptible to the fishing methods that we are using in the location we are fishing.

I submit that by using fluorocarbon, we are eliminating a reason that cause some fish to refuse the fly. I submit that some fish refuse the fly when they recognize the leader as danger. This does not have to mean that fluorocarbon is invisible. All it means is that there are fewer fish that recognize fluorocarbon as danger. They may actually see the fluorocarbon but the visual signature is different enough from mono that fewer fish see it as danger.
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"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
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  #15  
Old 12-29-2017, 03:51 AM
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Baiter Baiter is offline
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Originally Posted by Silver Creek View Post
I agree! As I stated in my original post, the extrusion process coats the mono and fluoro with a thin coating of silicone lubricant. This enhances the reflective surface

Any reflective surface draws attention. Can the fish recognize this reflection as abnormal so that it will refuse a fly based only on this? I think in some situations, over very wary in heavily fished waters, it does occur.

A leader floating on surface tension, displaces the water surface just like a person lying on a trampoline displaces the surface. Since the water surface under the leader is now tilted and not horizontal, this creates mini windows that the fish can see just like the legs of an insect dimple the water surface allowing the trout to detect them even though they are theoretically outside of the "window". Since the light pattern is disrupted, it can be seen by the fish that are looking up AND by the fish that are looking down, because the disrupted light pattern is displayed on the stream bottom as well. This is important in still waters and the clear slow waters of spring creek type fishing situations where the water surface is smooth. It also only important IF the fish are wary enough that this change in light pattern (either by the floating leader or by leader sheen) puts the fish off.

Take a look at the photo below of 3 identical tippets treated in 3 different ways. The tippet on the left that has been wiped clean, the middle one degreased and the right one treated with a floatant. If seeing is believing, which tippet is most easily seen?





The photo above shows direct visualization of the tippet. What it does not show is the effect of refraction on the bottom of the stream. When refracted light hits the stream bottom, bright flickers of light are cast on the stream bottom (see photo below). This spooks trout that are heavily fished over in clear slow moving water. During bright days you might as will toss a rock into the water. The fish immediately stop feeding.




Commercial degreasers are commonly called "mud", such as Loon Snake River Mud or "tippet degreaser" such as Airflow Tippet Degreaser.

Degreasers do three things. First they contain a cleaner (detergent) that removes any oils or residual chemicals that are on the surface of commercial tippets. These oils prevent the leader from sinking. Secondly, they contain a sinkant or surfactant (detergent) that destroys the surface tension of water molecules so the leader sinks immediately. Thirdly they contain fuller's earth compound that dulls the leader to remove the shiny surface so that the leader surface is less reflective. And finally, they contain a substance (glycerin) that keeps the degreaser from drying out.

If you look at the formula you may think that the only thing you have in your house is the detergent. However, you may already have a substitute for fuller's earth which is a special kind of bentonite clay. Bentonite is a clay material that anyone who visits Wyoming for fishing has probably walked on. It is a common material in cat litter and commercial bags of clay oil absorbent. So if you have clay cat litter or oil absorbent for your garage, you have the major ingredient for making your own degreaser.

Glycerin is used in commercial leader degreaser to keep it from drying out. If you don't have glycerin, you can get some at a drug store. It is used as an anti-constipation agent. However, it is not absolutely needed.

I make my own degreaser by crushing the clay to get the finest particles and then mix in Dawn or another dishwashing detergent to get a paste. I happen to have glycerin and so I also use it but you don't have to. I store the degreaser in a 35 mm film canister and rub it on the section of leader you want to sink.

Degreasers are different from sinkants such as Gerke's Xink. These are liquids surfactants that you put on flies that you want to sink. They are commonly used on the marabou of wooly buggers so that they sink and absorb water from the very first cast. Another use is for small flies like midge pupa so they will sink faster. You can make your own sinkant as well.

KodakPhoto Flo, a wetting agent used in photo processing, is used by fly fishers to sink flies. Photo-Flo has two compositions, one has propylene glycol and the other has ethylene glycol. Both are glycols are surfactants and wetting agents. One does not need to buy Photo-flo, however. Automotive antifreeze is composed of propylene or ethylene glycol. So automotive antifreeze will sink tippets. Ethylene and propylene glycol disrupt the hydrogen bonding of water that creates the meniscus surface film that supports flies. That is how these glycols prevent water from freezing. So try some antifreeze as a wetting agent.

That is why over in Europe where the fish are extremely heavily fished, they use leader degreasers to remove the sheen and get the leaders to sink just below the surface. I think if you can make the leader less apparent to the fish, that is a good thing and I can't think of much of a downside to lowering visibility.

They sure swear by it in Europe.

For more information, there is a discussion and video below:

Suggestions for best line degreaser? - Fly Fishing Forums

How do you degrease leaders? - Fly Fishing Forums

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/general-f...ur-leader.html
Great info. Thank you so much for the links. I often use real mud / clay but was ignorant about the detergent in commercial products. I am a little wiser now
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  #16  
Old 12-29-2017, 07:42 AM
Dub Dub is offline
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Flouro

Bucksnort....when Flourocarbon came out I was working at Allen's Flyfishing. In Sept '96 I took a trip with some clients to Alaska fishing with a buddy of mine who guides up there. I specifically wanted to test out this new fangled tippet. We spent a week fishing various waters up there from large rivers to smaller streams. We hired a float plane and spent three nights camped out on a small lake that was above one of the better rivers targeting the rainbows feeding on salmon spawn. This lake is where the float planes landed from the high dollar fishing lodges. They would fly in around 10am and leave around 4 pm. We let the paying guests alone while they were there fishing the better runs and fished the marginal waters below them (which still held plenty of big rainbows). Now at that time of the year the sun comes up about 4 am and sets around 11 pm so we had plenty of time to hit the water the high dollar clients had fished both before and after they left. I would go intentionally and fish the water they had worked all day. First day I made a pass through a good run with my regular mono tippet and landed one rainbow. I waited a bit and made the same run I just went through and caught 5 fish on 5 casts using the new flouro. I have used it ever since.
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  #17  
Old 12-29-2017, 10:26 AM
Bucksnort Bucksnort is offline
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Dub - Thanks for the reply. When you fished the water after changing to fluoro, did you use the same flies? It seems there are a lot of variables coming into play in situations like this. A lot can change in a short period. I believe all the good new stories about fluoro but, as I said, I'm not convinced and to be honest with you, I don't know if I will have an opportunity to try fluoro except maybe in the situation below.

I'm going back to Colorado this summer for three weeks of exploring my old stomping grounds. I will start at a lake at about 12,000' where we catch cutthroats all day on just about anything on the end of the tippet. Maybe I will take the two or three spools of fluoro I found in my bag-o-tippets and see what happens. We catch these fish from the bank at one end of the lake but when we launch our pontoon boats and fish other parts of the lake that are mostly inaccessible, catching is almost non-existent. This may be the time to do a test.

Here is a short story about finicky fish. My sister has a 40 acre farm in Woodstock, NY. On her property is a lake small enough so you can throw a rock across it from any direction. I guess this would be more like a pond. They stock the pond with big mouth bass. One year, I visited the farm during the winter before the water froze. I borrowed some really crappy spinning gear with really old line from my brother-in-law. He gave me a box of sub-surface lures. I tied one on, walked around the lake and caught and released maybe a dozen small bass. The next day I fished again, using the same lure, and couldn't buy a strike. Again I say, there are a lot of variables. I can't tell you why the big change from one day to the next. The weather was the same. Perhaps they were hip to my style of retrieving lures.

Last edited by Bucksnort; 12-29-2017 at 10:33 AM.
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  #18  
Old 12-29-2017, 11:29 AM
Dub Dub is offline
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Bs

BS...yes, I used the same flies. It sounds like you don't fish bass much. That is common for bass. One day you'll catch twenty on a bank. Same conditions next day and you'll get blanked. I fished Havasu two weeks ago and caught 40-50 stripers in one day. Went back this past Monday after coming back from seeing my boys in Cal and caught two....that's bass/stripers.
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  #19  
Old 12-29-2017, 12:47 PM
aztightlines aztightlines is offline
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Funny, small world....Woodstock is my home town, where I began fishing on Catskill streams and ponds. Started out with cane poles and rock bass, sunfish and bullheads, riding the bike to backyard ponds..progressed to bass/sunfish fishing in S. Arizona lakes.

Not familiar with a 40 acre farm in Woodstock, but fished warmwater species successfully during college years at Lake 212, a private "lake" between Woodstock /Saugerties that held largemouth, pickerel and, for us, giant sunfish.

Getting back to the subject at hand...I ran a fly shop for 15 years and have only purchased fluorocarbon tippets since being in the position to pay retail prices. Must tell you something, but to each his own.
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