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-   -   The Committee Punch Bowl (http://www.azflyandtie.com/flyforum/showthread.php?t=16020)

Bucksnort 05-15-2019 04:45 PM

The Committee Punch Bowl
 
Many years ago, an article appeared in an issue of the Colorado Parks and Wildlife magazine about how cutthroat trout may have crossed the Continental Divide. One theory is ice dams that would build up in creeks on either side of the Divide enabling trout to swim over the Divide.

I don't know more about this but I do know there is a likely place in Canada called, "The Committee Punch Bowl" where the must have crossed.

On the Outdoor Channel, a program called, "The Brigade" is being aired. It is about a group of ten people who are retracing the route used by the men who paddled and portaged in 30' canoes from the west coast to Hudson Bay for the purpose of selling furs. The canoe is a modern day replica of the original boats. On the west side of the Divide, all river movement is against the current. On the east side, all movement is downstream. The latest show is about the team reaching the top of the Continental Divide at a place called, "The Committee Punch Bowl". It is a flat place on the Divide with what looks like two small lakes. The interesting thing about the Bowl is, water from these two bodies flow west to the Pacific and East to the Mississippi River. I know that is what happens on each side of the Divide all along the Divide but I had no idea a place such as this exists.

This was probably an excellent place for trout to move from one side of the Divide to the other. I had no idea a place such as this exists.

stoneflynut 05-16-2019 07:29 AM

The distribution of coastal cutthroat trout throughout the western interrior is a truly amazing feat. Lakes Missoula and Bonneville had much to do with facilitating that distribution due to ice dams.

bgiordano 05-16-2019 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucksnort (Post 173211)
Many years ago, an article appeared in an issue of the Colorado Parks and Wildlife magazine about how cutthroat trout may have crossed the Continental Divide. One theory is ice dams that would build up in creeks on either side of the Divide enabling trout to swim over the Divide.

I don't know more about this but I do know there is a likely place in Canada called, "The Committee Punch Bowl" where the must have crossed.

On the Outdoor Channel, a program called, "The Brigade" is being aired. It is about a group of ten people who are retracing the route used by the men who paddled and portaged in 30' canoes from the west coast to Hudson Bay for the purpose of selling furs. The canoe is a modern day replica of the original boats. On the west side of the Divide, all river movement is against the current. On the east side, all movement is downstream. The latest show is about the team reaching the top of the Continental Divide at a place called, "The Committee Punch Bowl". It is a flat place on the Divide with what looks like two small lakes. The interesting thing about the Bowl is, water from these two bodies flow west to the Pacific and East to the Mississippi River. I know that is what happens on each side of the Divide all along the Divide but I had no idea a place such as this exists.

This was probably an excellent place for trout to move from one side of the Divide to the other. I had no idea a place such as this exists.


This is likely how Apache Trout are native to the Black River and Little Colorado River drainages. It's on a much smaller scale than the divide you are referring to, but it likely happened right on Mount Baldy. The upper headwater tributaries of the Black River and LCR drainages are AWFULLY close.

stoneflynut 05-16-2019 02:26 PM

Research by Robert Behnke discussed in Trout and Salmon of North America concludes rainbow trout that migrated up the Colorado River from the Sea of Cortez turned right at the confluence of the Gila. From there some traveled up the Salt and morphed into Apache Trout while those traveling up the Gila to the headwaters became Gila Trout. Arizona's native trout did not gain access to headwater streams by transfer from other river systems but migrated from the ocean and established populations in headwaters. The research did include genetic analysis of existing populations that proved our two native fishes are decendents of migrating ocean-derived rainbows.

joe 05-16-2019 03:15 PM

Dr. Behnke versus Dr. Miller, who knows for sure ?? click AZfly&tie link below:

http://www.azflyandtie.com/flyforum/...ght=almostlost

bgiordano 05-17-2019 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneflynut (Post 173219)
Research by Robert Behnke discussed in Trout and Salmon of North America concludes rainbow trout that migrated up the Colorado River from the Sea of Cortez turned right at the confluence of the Gila. From there some traveled up the Salt and morphed into Apache Trout while those traveling up the Gila to the headwaters became Gila Trout. Arizona's native trout did not gain access to headwater streams by transfer from other river systems but migrated from the ocean and established populations in headwaters. The research did include genetic analysis of existing populations that proved our two native fishes are decendents of migrating ocean-derived rainbows.

You are correct in that they came up the Gila and into the Salt. However, the Little Colorado River has no connectivity to the Gila. Completely different drainages that originate less than a mile from each other, but flow in opposite directions from there. Somehow Apache Trout got into the upper LCR. With the close proximity of the two headwaters, it's very likely that it was due to headwater transfer.

aztightlines 05-17-2019 08:31 PM

Does it seem likely the transfer we are talking about..the White, Black and Little Colorado headwaters are close together..but imagine a large cienega from the area by present day Big Lake over to Sunrise, where the populations could redistribute.

It looks like a big area that could have been connected at one time, a high altitude swamp/marsh (cienega) that fish could easily navigate .

BigPoppa 05-19-2019 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgiordano (Post 173222)
You are correct in that they came up the Gila and into the Salt. However, the Little Colorado River has no connectivity to the Gila. Completely different drainages that originate less than a mile from each other, but flow in opposite directions from there. Somehow Apache Trout got into the upper LCR. With the close proximity of the two headwaters, it's very likely that it was due to headwater transfer.

Another thing to consider is that a bird of prey could have transferred the Apache from one water shed to another. Since they are so close it isn't that far of a stretch.

M Lopez 05-19-2019 10:49 PM

They would have had to drop at least two, a male and female Apache, but I guess its possible. My observations is that if an osprey or eagle is able to lift a trout out of the water and carry it for any distance, that fish is pretty beat up.

An interesting thing I've seen a number of times is an osprey grabbing a trout, then get chased around by an eagle looking to steal his dinner. If the osprey can't loose the eagle pretty quick, it usually drops the fish and lets the eagle have it.

Tying2Fly 05-20-2019 01:25 PM

This is all very interesting stuff. One thing I noted a few years back, that I was fishing somewhere that I don't recall, maybe Woods Canyon lake or Willow Springs, but I kept one good sized trout by putting it in my small cooler that maybe had a little water from melted ice. It was in the cooler for several hours un-damaged. In other words I hadn't cleaned it yet. When I did get home in Chandler, I basically put some cold tap water in the kitchen sink and dumped the trout in to clean it. I put a few things away before hand meaning the trout was in the sink for a few minutes. When I did come to the sink to clean the fish, it was but swimming about in the sink. I was amazed at this and actually felt bad to finally end the life of such a strong willed trout! So, I can see how some of these fish can endure some harsh and normally lethal environments and yet make it to other areas and survive the event.


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