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-   -   Overgrazed Meadows cause issues for Native fish and the meadow (http://www.azflyandtie.com/flyforum/showthread.php?t=15576)

joe 07-09-2017 10:50 AM

Overgrazed Meadows cause issues for Native fish and the meadow
 
This video explains the importance of meadow restoration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku0Q...ature=youtu.be

stoneflynut 07-09-2017 12:33 PM

This is excellent! Although these concepts are not new to me personally, it's impressive how well presented they are. Loved the analogy of open heart surgery to stream/meadow restoration.

SAT 07-09-2017 10:20 PM

Nice video. Thanks Joe!

Sasquatch 07-11-2017 08:31 AM

Yes overgrazing can destroy a meadow from our perspective and timeline but these conditions have occurred many times over through the eons. Massive herds of ungulates would move through, overgraze and fertilize before man was even around and the meadows evolved and survived. We must be careful in our attempts to act as Mother Nature because we cannot totally see the long term effects of what we do.

Every environmentalist repeatedly says we must preserve for future generations yet we have no idea what the future generations will want. I think they are going to want a lot of hamburgers and live their life in a virtual reality.

stoneflynut 07-11-2017 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquatch (Post 170399)
Yes overgrazing can destroy a meadow from our perspective and timeline but these conditions have occurred many times over through the eons. Massive herds of ungulates would move through, overgraze and fertilize before man was even around and the meadows evolved and survived. We must be careful in our attempts to act as Mother Nature because we cannot totally see the long term effects of what we do.

Every environmentalist repeatedly says we must preserve for future generations yet we have no idea what the future generations will want. I think they are going to want a lot of hamburgers and live their life in a virtual reality.

But, ultimately, they will need clean water. And so will the fish. It's also important to consider that those massive herds of ungulates you referred to were not constrained by fences so were able to move about and graze over large areas, were not endemic to the southwest, and were harassed by predators keeping them moving to new areas thus preventing overgrazing. When these massive herds of wild ungulates were replaced by fenced in cattle the overgrazing began in earnest. We now know how to fix it!

joe 07-11-2017 09:16 AM

As Stonefly mentioned, before cattle ranchers and their associated buddies killed off the wolfs, grazing animals were kept in check in the meadows and along reparian areas. There was a Yellowstone NP video posted on this website which educationally explained this.

Sasquatch 07-13-2017 06:43 PM

I have no objections to a near natural ecosystem as exsists in Yellowstone (though the ranchers in the interface would disagree). But it needs to be kept there. If you are implying that would be the solution for the sw, I disagree. Ranchers cannot accurately manage their cattle and G&F cannot manage their resources for the sportsman with predators messing with the numbers. We are the predators now and we have the ability and intelligence to practice conservation better than the feast or famine ways of the wild.

My issue was with the funds spent on the meadow restoration. Good cause, something I would donate time to if a had some to spare. Anything that improves the fishing is good. But spending funds for "future generations" when a fire or 100 year flood could wipe it out at any time does not make sense. Especially when we see campgrounds and rest areas all closing for lack of funds for maintenance. Forest access roads and atv trails closing for preservation of the ecosystem for future generations. What about this generation.

I say a future generation will see a glacier in that alpine meadow if we survive long enough.

Litespeed1 07-14-2017 10:45 AM

So much fodder.

I understand nature now requires our management. There's a big difference between hunters managing large animals and wild predators.

My hunter friends focus on the largest strongest animal being hunted. Largest racks, biggest bodies etc. Wolfs and mountain lions etc focus on more easily caught animals. Like the old, sick and real young. So over time the genetic strength of a herd gets diminished.

I'm not writing against hunting because at this point its needed. But to state humans function and provide a service to an ecosystem as "predators" is only offered to provide comfort. That's the way we awesome humans want it to be. I love me a good hamburger but cattle affect the land much differently than elk, or whatever used to roam here.

Imagine what the country would be like if no money was ever spent on trying to restore it back to it's more natural condition?

It would suck and there would be little need for this site.

We would all be fly fishing for crawdads.

Fly Chef 07-14-2017 06:33 PM

Ridiculous.

Humans are the problem, not the solution.

Ranging cattle on the forage base in the Southwest is a fools folly. The only thing they are good for is McDonald's burgers or dog food. Why should I, as a taxpayer, subsidize cattle ranchers who graze on National Forest or BLM land? If they want to graze on the land they should buy it. The ranchers who lose cattle to predation by wolves and lions should not be reimbursed by my tax money.

The work being done in the video is not just for "future" generations. It's also for us. Cattle have no business grazing in riparian habitat.

The 100 year floods won't happen, or be as catastrophic, if we encourage and support the riparian habitat. The fires, which will happen, are actually beneficial if we manage our forests properly.

Predators "messing with the numbers"? Litespeed is dead on with his commentary.

Sasquatch 07-15-2017 08:38 AM

Ya all watch too many educational videos made by those with agendas. To say predators only eat the week is obsured. They eat what they kill. One lion will kill 3-4 ungulates a week. Cattle are no different than elk or bison, they graze and they fertilize. Too many will cause a problem, again management.

As said in the video, after their work the meadow will have a near complete recovery within three years. So what's the hurry? Fenced off and left alone it will recover on its own, just takes longer.

I am saying we need to get our priorities straight. Spend our monies wisely and not on opinionated conjecture because it gives us warm fuzzies.


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